This is the automatically generated IRC log made by the logger bot from the SVG IRC chat at irc.freenode.net port 6667 channel #svg
You are here: Logs Home / 2005-01-08
00:28:43 <JimJibber> Dear Scalable Vector Graphics Working Group,
00:28:45 <JimJibber> you're crap!
00:28:47 <JimJibber> JimJibber is now known as JibberJi
00:29:32 <JibberJi> JibberJi is now known as JibberJim
00:33:20 <Wild|AWAY> Wild|AWAY is now known as WildFox
01:54:21 <stelt>http://i-newswire.com/pr2400.html
01:54:22 <svg-chump> A: http://i-newswire.com/pr2400.html from stelt
01:54:49 <stelt> A:| CorelDraw Graphics Suite 12.0: A Complete Graphics Package In One
01:54:50 <svg-chump> Titled item A.
09:44:29 <schepers> for anyone reading the logs: what is the state of support for SVG in Safari 1.0.3 or thereabouts? I read that you can install the ASV plugin, but that scripting doesn't work. Can any MacHeads confirm or deny?
11:59:21 <WildFox> WildFox is now known as Wild|AWAY
13:03:00 <Wild|AWAY> Wild|AWAY is now known as WildFox
13:41:48 <sunny256_> sunny256_ is now known as sunny256
14:05:02 <bjoern_> cool, 2005 starts with the worst W3C Working Group name ever!
14:22:18 <balbinus> ?
14:22:46 <stelt> "its"i guess
14:22:52 <bjoern_> yes
14:25:07 <stelt> I agree it's not as funny as WTF
14:30:35 <bjoern_> JibberJim!
14:31:33 <JibberJim> bjoern_
15:31:07 <Terzu> It took about 3 days but now I found the "Useless expression"... One bug less now :)
15:40:14 <WildFox> WildFox is now known as Wild|WORK
17:19:01 <bjoern_> it would be nice if the smil20 rec .zip did not ship with a 650kb Thumbs.db Thumbs Plus database...
17:19:21 <balbinus> :D
17:20:59 <JibberJim> hehe
17:21:12 <JibberJim> anything "interesting" in there?
17:22:59 <bjoern_> I don't have an app that can read thumbs.db files installed...
17:23:32 <bjoern_> reminds me of the member-only xhtml 2.0 draft easter egg in the latest xhtml m12n 2ed draft...
17:24:16 <balbinus> what was that easter egg?
17:25:20 <bjoern_>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2004AprJun/0065.html
17:25:20 <svg-chump> B: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2004AprJun/0065.html from bjoern_
17:33:39 <JibberJim> B:| XHTML 2.0 member only working draft available...
17:33:39 <svg-chump> Titled item B.
17:35:22 <bjoern_> It's quite outdated now though...
17:36:47 <balbinus> lol
18:07:28 <schepers> schepers has changed the topic to: Subject to Vicissitudes and Gregariousness (or Scalable Vector Graphics...)
18:20:56 <Wild|WORK> Wild|WORK is now known as WildFox
18:59:51 <FatherHam> what are you using to view svg
19:00:33 * bjoern_ resists to say SVG Viewers...
19:02:50 <FatherHam> well?
19:03:58 <bjoern_> well, the answer would be it depends... you'd use SVG Viewers, but which exactly depends on a number of things, you might use a different viewer on your windows pc than on your mobile phone, for example.
19:05:06 <FatherHam> from what i can tell, firefox svg is the only thing with promise
19:05:09 <FatherHam> i tried adobes, and it sucks
19:07:46 <JibberJim> you should look at ikivo's and bitflashes
19:08:28 <WildFox> LOL
19:08:35 <WildFox> http://www.ikivo.com/ <- uses Flash on it's front page
19:08:36 <svg-chump> C: http://www.ikivo.com/ from WildFox
19:09:00 <FatherHam> haha nice
19:09:18 <FatherHam> this is just for phones?
19:09:20 <JibberJim> yes WildFox, lots of us don't think flash and SVG play in the same market
19:09:35 <JibberJim> I'll always use flash for marketing gimmickry.
19:10:02 <WildFox> JibberJim: i agree with you but I found it funny ...
19:10:46 <FatherHam> why
19:10:48 <FatherHam> please explain
19:11:46 <JibberJim> What do you mean why? is not obvious?
19:12:02 <JibberJim> they have different strengths and weaknesses, and marketing gimmickry is flashes strength
19:12:12 <JibberJim> it's one time authoring with static content.
19:12:59 <FatherHam> so you dont think SVG coupled with an IDE and javscript/SMIL could create a similar framework as flash?
19:13:57 <JibberJim> I don't understand the question, could you rephrase?
19:15:20 <FatherHam> OpenWebMedia=(SVG + JS + SMIL + IDE); Flash=(SWF + AS + IDE);
19:15:28 <FatherHam> you dont think OWM == Flash?
19:15:33 <FatherHam> in terms of marketing gimmickery?
19:15:57 <JibberJim> I'm still really not getting at what you're talking about, you're just shoving words together.
19:16:05 <FatherHam> ask something specific
19:16:13 <FatherHam> i cant rephrase
19:16:16 <JibberJim> you're the person with the questions!
19:16:21 <FatherHam> uhhm
19:16:25 <FatherHam> wow communication breakdown
19:16:41 <JibberJim> if all you're asking is "can SVG be used to for marketing gimmickry?"
19:16:53 <JibberJim> then the answer is yes, but it's not that well suited for it.
19:17:01 <FatherHam> why
19:17:05 <FatherHam> its the same as swf basically
19:17:09 <FatherHam> just lacks an ide
19:17:27 <JibberJim> there are a number of flash-like IDE's for SVG.
19:18:14 <JibberJim> in the sense that it's a vector graphics + animation + scriptable format, yes it's similar to swf, but that doesn't mean the strengths and weaknesses are in the same place.
19:18:21 <JibberJim> or they automatically become competitors
19:37:20 <FatherHam> please tell me the IDEs
19:43:03 <JibberJim> well there was one on the ikivo site, there's beatware's there's XStudio
19:47:58 <FatherHam> hmm
19:48:06 <FatherHam> seems like all of this is mobile
19:48:51 <JibberJim> a lot of it is mobile, because the more marketing side of stuff where you need a flash (the editor) like tool is focused on mobile.
19:49:20 <JibberJim> the application style stuff doesn't use an editor, you're just producing XML, so you use your normal XML workflows.
19:49:49 <JibberJim> with the graphical content coming from illustrator or similar, just like your rasters are coming from photoshop.
19:50:23 <FatherHam> i see, and are there any such productions in use? since there isnt even a viewer for the web it seems unlikely
19:51:01 <JibberJim> what do you mean?
19:51:07 <FatherHam> for svg apps
19:51:19 <JibberJim> what do you mean?
19:51:28 <JibberJim> "such productions" what is that?
19:51:49 <FatherHam> creations
19:51:51 <FatherHam> working apps
19:51:54 <FatherHam> using SVG xml
19:52:12 <bjoern_> So you are asking who is using SVG at all?
19:52:46 <FatherHam> on the web
19:52:46 <JibberJim> have you done any work for yourself? maybe looked at the SVG sites, maybe looked at the people who've presented their applications at svgopen before etc.
19:53:11 <FatherHam> ive looked on the web and couldnt find much of anything
19:53:21 <bjoern_> .mg inurl:svg
19:53:27 <phenny> inurl:svg: 3,520,000
19:53:36 <bjoern_> .mg svg
19:53:39 <phenny> svg: 3,670,000
19:54:01 <FatherHam> yes i see that, but ive visited the first X results and see no examples
19:54:05 <FatherHam> people talk about the tech
19:54:07 <FatherHam> but who is using it
19:54:28 <JibberJim> have you looked at the people who've presented at the various SVG Open conferences?
19:54:45 <FatherHam> no
19:54:49 <FatherHam> i dont go to conferences
19:54:57 <JibberJim> I didn't ask you to go!
19:55:08 <JibberJim> but that's a good place to find examples of people using it...
19:55:12 <bjoern_> Try http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl:svgz+-inurl:html for lots of examples.
19:55:24 <JibberJim> if you're incapbable of using google.
19:56:10 <bjoern_> phenny: tell sbp why does .mg not like inurl: queries?
19:56:13 <phenny> bjoern_: I'll pass that on for you when sbp is around.
19:56:32 <JibberJim> google shouldn't be indexing any svgz...
19:56:45 <JibberJim> it's only misconfigured servers that'll give it to google.
19:57:38 <bjoern_> .g inurl:svgz -inurl:html inurl:websitedev
19:57:40 <phenny> inurl:svgz -inurl:html inurl:websitedev: http://www.websitedev.de/svg/vxhtml11.svgz
19:57:51 <bjoern_> that's not misconfigured!
19:58:50 <JibberJim> so it chooses to send it anyway even though googlebot says it doesn't like it?
19:59:56 <FatherHam> a lot of these dont display in mozilla svg
20:00:08 <bjoern_> JibberJim, yes, there is not much wrong with that...
20:00:15 <JibberJim> no.
20:00:28 <JibberJim> well, I think there is, but it is legal...
20:00:41 <JibberJim> I did think though that googlebot didn't index it.
20:01:07 <JibberJim> strange that it won't index a 406 page, but does index a page it gets even though it can't understand it
20:01:46 <FatherHam> in fact only a few loaded
20:01:51 <FatherHam> and not have scripting
20:01:52 <FatherHam> bummer
20:02:35 <JibberJim> you're using a beta quality product, and expecting release quality SVG's authored before it existed to just work with it
20:02:36 <JibberJim> ?
20:03:12 <FatherHam> jibber you have a lot of attitude
20:03:29 <JibberJim> I have no idea what that means...
20:03:54 <FatherHam> i know, you have difficulty processing language
20:04:33 <FatherHam> SVG is supposidly useful, and supposidly more powerful than just for still vector pictures.... and it is an old technology... so im trying to find some use of it
20:04:38 <FatherHam> but i see nothing impressive
20:04:42 <JibberJim> .wn attitude
20:05:03 <JibberJim> yes FatherHam, but it's clear you've made no effort to find any, and I'm really not here to help you look.
20:05:13 <JibberJim> .w attitude
20:05:16 <phenny> attitude 1. a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values and dispositions to act in certain ways; "he had the attitude that work was fun"
20:05:20 <phenny> attitude 2. position or arrangement of the body and its limbs; "he assumed an attitude of surrender"
20:05:24 <phenny> attitude 3. a theatrical pose created for effect; "the actor struck just the right attitude" [...]
20:05:27 <FatherHam> it has nothing to do with effort. none exist
20:05:40 <FatherHam> SVG is not used in production environments on the web
20:05:42 <FatherHam> Flash is
20:06:01 <JibberJim> you keep bringing up flash as if there's some competition between the two
20:06:13 <FatherHam> excuse me
20:06:14 <FatherHam> SWF
20:06:16 <JibberJim> there's not, they're different technologies with different strengths and weaknesses.
20:06:20 <FatherHam> SWF is everywhere, but SVG is nowhere
20:06:40 <JibberJim> it's like comparing HTML and PDF, they solve very similar problems, yet rarely compete.
20:06:53 <FatherHam> SVG obviously solves no web problems
20:07:02 <FatherHam> it is used in some linux WM' i see now
20:07:04 <FatherHam> but not on the web
20:07:11 <FatherHam> maybe mobile web
20:07:15 <FatherHam> but not for desktops
20:08:56 <JibberJim> go look for yourself at the places you've been pointed at, and come back when you can list 10 places where it is used, or just stop taking an interest if your discoveries are correct, there's no point continuing, go look at something else.
20:09:17 <FatherHam> i clicked all those svgz' til i got to the end
20:09:37 <schepers> JibberJim, you have a lot of complex mental states involving beliefs and feelings and values and dispositions to act in certain ways
20:09:50 <JibberJim> google searching is not a good way of finding them. What did the SVGopen pages suggest?
20:09:59 <JibberJim> yes schepers, I don't get that :-)
20:10:24 <schepers> you also have position or arrangement of your body and its limbs
20:10:29 <FatherHam> wtf is the problem with the people in these OpenSource/Standard related channels?? instead of trying to build things that are actually used, and that solve problems, everyone has this attitude like, "this is how it is, if you dont understand it, or you dont like it, LEAVE!"
20:10:51 <JibberJim> bjoern_, why is your valid badge not using the W3C in SVG font I did.
20:11:07 <JibberJim> FatherHam, this is not on open source channel
20:11:16 <FatherHam> SVG is an open standard
20:11:21 <JibberJim> I am not an open source developer.
20:11:23 <FatherHam> SWF is proprietary and mainstream
20:11:29 <FatherHam> SVG is used by no one
20:11:40 <JibberJim> I build lots of things that are actually used.
20:11:40 <bjoern_> And your point is?
20:11:57 <FatherHam> my point is, what is the point in having a standard when i cant even figure out how to use it on the web!?!?!
20:12:02 <FatherHam> why bother when you fail
20:12:26 <FatherHam> there are no good viewers, none are easy to obtain, there is no content
20:12:26 <JibberJim> because we don't fail...
20:12:27 <schepers> FatherHam, I'm using SVG, I have clients who use SVG in both intranet and Internet applications, and I'm making a living on it. So, SVG is being used, just not as pervasively as Flash/SWF
20:12:37 <JibberJim> we make money doing this stuff...
20:12:43 <FatherHam> schepers then tell me HOW... where is the website with this info??
20:13:38 <schepers> what info? my apps are all created dynamically through serverside or client-side script... it's not for drawing pretty pictures
20:13:40 <JibberJim> I can sell you how to make money with SVG FatherHam, just send me 500$ and I'll email you the links to the secret webpage we use...
20:13:47 <schepers> lol
20:14:08 <schepers> seriously, you should read the svg-developers list if you want to get started
20:14:30 <schepers> (oh, and pay me $500, too... :)
20:14:55 <schepers> it's not a black art... read SVG Unleashed to see the power of SVG
20:15:27 <schepers> while you don't like Adobe's viewer, there are plenty of people who think it's great for their purposes
20:16:58 <schepers> as for the FF SVG, it's not nearly as advanced as the MozSVG on the main trunk, and nowhere near as complete an implementation as Adobe's, so I find your claims that it's the best a bit absurd
20:17:26 <schepers> that said, I do think it's great that it will be natively supported, and I'm doing what I can to help
20:18:08 <FatherHam> well, adobes plugin seems real slow, and doesnt seem to work for good scripted animation
20:18:43 <schepers> nobody here is going to bend over backward to convert you to the splendiferous wonderment that is the perfect SVG... we like it, we use it; if you don't like it, don't use it, but don't bitch at us because we do
20:19:28 <schepers> ok, folks, the giraffe and I are off to figure out how to make veggie reubens... wish us luck
20:19:51 * JibberJim doesn't like it much
20:20:21 <JibberJim> it's just a tool, not something to have an emotional attachment too
20:25:58 <bjoern_> phenny: tell FatherHam note that Flash is five years older than SVG, so it should not surprise you much to find it's about a few years "behind" (if you need to compare them this way)
20:26:01 <phenny> bjoern_: I'll pass that on for you when fatherham is around.
20:26:19 <bjoern_> JibberJim, well, I did not update the image since...
20:26:46 <bjoern_> and I probably won't, yod is working on the SVG versions now...
20:27:22 <bjoern_> Maybe you can check your stuff is linked from http://esw.w3.org/topic/QualityBadges ?
20:32:12 <JibberJim> yeah the message there..
20:32:16 <JibberJim> er is there
20:32:37 <bjoern_> good
20:40:07 <graouts> hey there
20:40:39 <JibberJim> hi graouts
20:41:13 <graouts> Jimbo!
20:42:44 <graouts>http://store.adobe.com/store/products/master.jhtml?id=catPlugins_Animator
20:42:44 <svg-chump> D: http://store.adobe.com/store/products/master.jhtml?id=catPlugins_Animator from graouts
20:42:59 <graouts> D:| Ikivo Animator Available Through the Adobe Store
20:42:59 <svg-chump> Titled item D.
21:09:38 <schepers> anyone here use SVG with Safari?
21:16:05 <graouts> yup
21:16:09 <graouts> just saw yer email
21:16:20 <schepers> any thoughts?
21:16:32 <graouts> I don't ever do HTML + SVG communication so I couldn't tell you about that
21:16:45 <graouts> Otherwise, ASV works fine
21:17:00 <schepers> no, not HTML+SVG, just SVG scripting
21:17:11 <graouts> however, there is an integration issue that you can't open local files unless they're served from the local apache with the appropriate mime type
21:17:30 <schepers> ah, that's good to know, thanks
21:17:32 <graouts> I do all my SVG scripting with the ASV internal engine and never got issues there
21:17:53 <schepers> cool, that's very helpful... you da man
21:18:44 <graouts> Tasty: "I'm certain that the copy of "SVG Essentials" I gave to the Salvation Army will probably go unused for a few years before someone decides to send it to a landfill."
21:18:58 <graouts> from http://www.onlamp.com/pub/wlg/6171
21:19:28 <schepers> ouch! :)
21:22:31 <graouts> Safari just crashed trying to open some of the SVG games some SVG.org user talks about in his SVG.org sub
21:26:20 <schepers> hmmm... but, I suppose I can just be careful how I code
21:26:50 <schepers> graouts, if you can isolate what causes crashes, I'd be really grateful to know
21:26:57 <schepers> ok, outa here
21:27:38 <graouts> I don't think I am going to take a look at it, sorry
21:27:54 <schepers> np
21:28:04 <schepers> if you ever do find out though...
22:38:35 <graouts> Ha! Actually those SVG games work fine, I just didn't have ASV properly installed :)
22:38:50 <graouts> phenny, tell that to schepers
22:38:53 <phenny> graouts: I'll pass that on for you when that is around.
22:39:34 <graouts> now that I said that, I'm pretty sure that phenny won't be understand the contextual reference
22:40:17 <graouts> phenny, tell schepers that the games website just posted on SVG.org actually works fine
22:40:20 <phenny> graouts: I'll pass that on for you when schepers is around.
22:41:04 <JibberJim> phenny, tell sbp that you should take "tell that to X" to mean tell the previous few lines to the person in a privmsg.
22:41:07 <phenny> JibberJim: I'll pass that on for you when sbp is around.
23:07:00 <WildFox> WildFox is now known as Wild|AWAY
23:30:48 <stelt> root: identify stingme
23:30:55 <stelt> oops
23:37:32 <graouts> phenny, tell schepers that I wrote a short diary entry about Safari and ASV at http://svg.org/story/2005/1/8/233251/1088
23:37:34 <phenny> graouts: I'll pass that on for you when schepers is around.
23:40:05 <graouts> Jerome on SVG.org is a bit overly pedantic about XHTML in his comments
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